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Reluctant to think seriously?

I see no obvious reference to the statement by the apostle Peter that “the world that then was was overflowed with water”. The apostle is stating that the earth predates the sun and the moon and this is clear from genesis verse 1 where the word for heavens is actually single ie “heaven”. God created a heaven and the earth (no stars as yet). This earth was overflowed with water and then genesis verse 2 takes up the story with plural heavens (the stars also, streched out the heavens etc). Looking at dinosaur remains it is clear they existed in a very different world to ours (light wise, water wise and possibly gravitationally wise - probably no tides). What is more, the plants came forth AFTER their kinds, so the kinds existed before they were brought forth and we see the KINDS in the previous world of dinosaurs. After the event stated by the apostle (not noah’s flood which occured under the present heavens), God created the heavens (plural) we see today and the sun and the moon as stated in genesis. The reason there is scant reference to the previous world on earth in the scripture (jeremiah, Gen verse 1, Peter) is that the overflow was not a judgement as far as we are aware and God’s word for us today is to do with His dealings with us, mankind. It was not written for dinosaurs or monkeys, but man. Only 19th/20th/21st Century man with his incomplete scientific rationalisations has a problem because 1. he does not accept the structure of scripture (which clearly teaches the previous world) and 2. Is still woefully in the dark scientifically. The so called “gap theory” is rejected because it does not fit a superficial reading of scripture yet even a simpleton can see that God is called the Ancient of days (days being a measure of time and time is relative to the universe - see einstein). I wonder WHY their is such reluctance by young earthers to think seriously on these things - it appears that in a knee jerk reaction to evolutionists young earthers have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

Sincerely

Richard Spendiff
UK


I see no obvious reference to the statement by the apostle Peter that “the world that then was was overflowed with water”.

This comes from 2 Peter 3:5–6:

But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.

The apostle is stating that the earth predates the sun and the moon and this is clear from genesis verse 1 where the word for heavens is actually single ie “heaven”.

Not so. The Hebrew word used in Genesis 1 is שמיםshamayim. It is the dual form of the singularשמהshameh—which is never used!  It is the Hebrew that matters, not some English translation.

We do agree that the earth predates the sun, moon and stars that were created on Day 4. However, one can’t neglect the rest of what Peter is referring to. He said the earth was formed out of water and by water. This confirms Genesis 1:2 that says

The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

These waters, most likely, were later transformed in the Creation Week. For more on this please consult Dr. Russ Humphreys’ book Starlight and Time.

God created a heaven and the earth (no stars as yet).

Actually, Genesis 1:1 is a summary statement. The phrase “heavens and earth” is known as a figure of speech called a merism, in which two opposites are combined into an all-encompassing single concept. In this case, the Hebrew had no word for “universe”, so used this phrase for the totality of creation. This is explained in Morning has broken … but when?

It is logical that the angels were created during Creation Week so they could witness God’s creative powers as indicated in Job 38:4–7:

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

The angels witnessed God laying the foundations of the world, so it suggests that they were created early on Day 1. However, in this context, the “earth” (erets) could mean the dry land that appeared on Day 3, so the angels need only have been created by then. We also know angels were created during the six days as Exodus 20:8–11 says that all things were created in six days. For more on this please see Professor Doug Kelly’s book Creation and Change.

This earth was overflowed with water and then genesis verse 2 takes up

The Bible doesn’t say this. Genesis 1:2 indicates it was created as water. There is no indication that God did anything with the earth until verse 2.

Water is formless and pure water is void of anything. Now I ask then, does this idea that the world “became overflowed” come from man or God? Since it isn’t written in the Bible, then it comes from man. The psalmist says

It is better to trust in God than man (Psalms 118:8).

the story with plural heavens

The Bible doesn’t say this either. The plural heavens were indicated in the original, divinely inspired Hebrew of Genesis 1:1.

(the stars also, streched out the heavens etc).

No, the stars were formed on Day 4, not Day 1 (as you seem to indicate Genesis 1:2 here).

Looking at dinosaur remains it is clear they existed in a very different world to ours (light wise, water wise and possibly gravitationally wise - probably no tides).

Different yes, but what you say has no support in either Scripture or science. The antediluvian world wasn’t perfect because of the curse in Genesis 3 that was in effect.  The Flood of Noah happened in Genesis 6–9.  Here are some great articles on Noah’s Flood: Was the Flood global? and Q&A: Flood.

Also, tides were still in effect prior to Noah’s Flood. Please see The moon: the light that ruled the night.

What is more, the plants came forth AFTER their kinds,

The first part of the confusion here lies in the definition of a kind.  I am part of the human kind. A wolf is part of the dog kind. Another example is big cats, lions and tigers can breed so they are the same kind. Here is an article that should help clarify this: Ligers and Wolphins? What’s Next?

The next part of the confusion is during translation. When looking at the Hebrew, it is clear that the word “after” is a product of translation. The terminology “after their kind” is also correctly translated as “according to their kinds”. In fact, other Hebrew scholars have translated this as

Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds (Genesis 1:11).

I hope this helps clarify.

so the kinds existed before they were brought forth and we see the KINDS in the previous world of dinosaurs. After the event stated by the apostle (not noah’s flood which occured under the present heavens),

Consider the logical implications of this theology (gap theory):

1. If you reject that Noah’s Flood buried/killed most of the dinosaurs (hence their fossils in the geologic column), when Noah’s Flood did occur it would have destroyed the alleged sedimentary layers from this previous flood and regurgitated them.  Thus, there shouldn’t be dinosaur fossils if you really believe there were two global floods. By this theology, one must reject Noah’s Flood then …

2. If you believe there was death in the world prior to Adam’s sin, then what was Adam and Eve’s punishment? They didn’t get one for sinning against God because they would have received something very good (death) from God if this was the case. Let me explain, do you recall their punishment if they ate in Genesis 2:17:

but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.

If you truly believe death was prior to Day 6, then you have no choice but to believe that death is “very good” as Genesis 1:31 declares by God that all things in existence were good:

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Hence, by gap theory philosophy, Adam and Eve’s punishment was something good?  I know you probably don’t think death is good but in the gap theory, it is. Recall the words of Paul:

The last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26).

This theology completely undermines Jesus Christ and the Gospel. Here are two great articles that help expand on this: Death before sin and Understanding death.

God created the heavens (plural) we see today and the sun and the moon as stated in genesis. The reason there is scant reference to the previous world on earth in the scripture (jeremiah, Gen verse 1, Peter) is that the overflow was not a judgement as far as we are aware and God’s word for us today is to do with His dealings with us, mankind. It was not written for dinosaurs or monkeys, but man. Only 19th/20th/21st Century man with his incomplete scientific rationalisations has a problem because 1. he does not accept the structure of scripture (which clearly teaches the previous world)

The previous world spoken of in Scripture was a perfect world at the end of Day 6 without any death whatsoever.  Death is an intrusion, i.e., an enemy that came when Adam sinned. This explains why there is death and suffering. Adam and Eve lived in this perfect world for a while until they sinned against God. (Genesis 3). Then, God cursed the creation (Genesis 3:17, Romans 8:20–21), sentenced man to death (Genesis 2:17), cursed the animals (Genesis 3:14), etc.

The world of that time was flooded during the time of Noah and this is where the bulk of the geologic column came from. 

and 2. Is still woefully in the dark scientifically. The so called “gap theory” is rejected because it does not fit a superficial reading of scripture

Exactly. I’ll take it a step further … it actually goes against Scripture. The Bereans were commended by Paul for checking teachings against Scripture.  When the gap theory is checked next to Scripture, it is shown false by allowing for death before sin, rejection of Noah’s Flood, etc. These are clear indications that the gap theory is in error. I suggest you read the biblical problems with the gap theory as well as two excellent books: Refuting Compromise and Unformed and Unfilled.

yet even a simpleton can see that God is called the Ancient of days (days being a measure of time and time is relative to the universe - see einstein).

God is ancient of days because He is eternal and without beginning and end (Revelation 21:6, 22:13; Isaiah 48:12; Isaiah 44:6). One needs to be careful to not place time greater than God.  God cannot be measured in physical time as He created it: hence his comments in 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4.  How can something created by God be greater than God? Also, note that 6000 years is ancient—only the secular indoctrination in billions of years makes modern people think this is “young” (see The earth: how old does it look?).

I wonder WHY their is such reluctance by young earthers to think seriously on these things –

We have, hence the books Refuting Compromise and Unformed and Unfilled.  Have you read them?  I wonder why there is such reluctance by old-earth compromisers to think seriously on these things.

it appears that in a knee jerk reaction to evolutionists young earthers have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

Sincerely

Richard Spendiff
UK

I wonder why old-earthers have such reluctance listening to what God says in the Bible especially when it is written so clearly? This is the issue after all. One can trust fallible human ideas like “millions of years” or one can trust a perfect God when He speaks clearly in the Bible. There is no need to take fallible men’s ideas and try to change the Scriptures to fit them.

Who are we humans to say we know things God doesn’t?  The issue is simple—do you trust God? If so, then why not listen to what He has to say in Genesis without first trusting the idea of “millions of years”? Trust God first, and let Him tell you how old the earth is. The age of the earth is not the issue.

When Jesus was asked about divorce and marriage (obviously among humans), Jesus said

But at the beginning of creation God “made them male and female” (Mark 10:6).

Jesus was clear that human males and females came at the beginning of creation, not the end as gap theorists would want you to believe. Do you trust Jesus or the gap theory?


Pesky dinosaur bones

What a breath of fresh air you have been for my soul! I dont know who will read this, but I just feel the need to cry and get this all off my chest.

I dont remember where I first heard about you. I do remember that it was while I was looking into dinosaur science as part of homeschooling my children. I grew up very conservatively and never have known what to do with those pesky bones that kept turning up. When I was in elementary school we studied dinosaurs and the part of me that wanted to believe my parents sort of put up an internal barrier. They could teach me all they wanted to about dinosaurs, but just like the big bang theory I didnt have to believe any of it existed! The problem was, the bones DID seem to exist.

I attended a Christian High School. I remember when it was time to learn about the beginning of the world, we discussed Genesis 1, but then my teacher said it was important to know what the rest of the world was learning about. So we delved into the big bang. We talked about different creation science theories like the old earth theory and the long days for creation. My science teacher told us which one he believed. I dont remember what it was. I do remember thinking I had to choose a theory and not having any idea what I did believe any more. I thought it did not affect my faith. But I am realizing I was wrong.

20 years later, my son turned 3. Now I had a dinosaur lover. He adored any and all things dinosaur. I let him read it to his hearts content. But it was getting more and more troubling. How do I teach my son when it troubles me down to my marrow? When he looks at books that talk about man and dinosaurs not living at the same time, what do I say?

On a vacation this summer we went to a dinosaur dig site in Wyoming. It was amazing. That clinched it for me. I HAD to do some serious searching. These dinosaurs that I had cataloged as fake were in no way fake. They were very, very, very real.

So when I saw a couple of childrens books at a homeschool fair I thumbed through it thinking here is the answer for my children. But what I saw in the book chilled me to the bone. The book talked about Dinosaurs living next to man, and it talked about the flood. I felt chilled and sick for 2 reasons. First, because I thought that it was going to be a very weak argument and was not at all going to help me. And second, I felt chilled because I realized that I had totally bought the scientific evolution theory hook line and sinker all the while denying to my self that I had bought into it. The fact that I automatically assumed Dinosaurs By Design was a bunch of religious mumbo jumbo, but I considered myself a creationist shocked me. I was a skeptic! How had this happened to me??!!

I walked away without buying the book.

But God was guiding me. Sometime in all this I learned about AiG. I began devouring my weekly AiG updates and reading more and more, until I realized I needed to get the answers book [now entitled The Creation Answers Book]. And as long as I was getting that, I would get some books for my kids.

The books came yesterday. I devoured the Answers book. I read one Dinosaur book to my kids and wanted to cry when my 6 year old daughter kept saying thats not true. My husband, who also grew up in the church is arguing science with me. I am praying so hard he will go down this journey with me. He wants to, but I think will have a harder time breaking away from modern and popular science theories than I.

For more information on stars or problems with the big bang theory, please visit Q&A: Astronomy.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, for showing me that I can have a scientific mind and still believe that the God of the universe created it all in 6 days. Actual days! Thank you for making sense (most of the time I am still reeling from the whole star theories.)

And most of all thank you for your ministry.

Joyfully,
E.
USA


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