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Feedback archive Feedback 2013

Jesus: imposter or Israel’s God?

Published: 24 February 2013 (GMT+10)
Psalms scroll

wikipedia.org

In today’s feedback, Rabbi Chaim D. writes in response to Noah’s Ark … or what? He appreciates our emphasis on biblical creation, but asks that we leave Jesus out of the discussion. CMI’s Dr Carl Wieland shows why Jesus is the reason why we write about creation—he is our eternal Creator and Israel’s God come in the flesh.

The Torah is so laden and interwoven with Christ, that it beggars description.

I enjoy and appreciate reading this and other articles. They show your commitment and dedication to the Bible and true science, and are much more truth seeking and respectfully written than evolutionist writings. I wish you would stop mentioning Jesus in articles, as they make myself and other Jews feel alienated from the articles, as Jesus-worship is absolutely forbidden to Jews. Please appreciate our feelings and leave him out of the articles. After all, he is irrelevent as he lived over 2000 years after the creation and flood events dealt with in the articles. Our ancestors heard the Voice of the Creator speaking at Mount Sinai and telling us to keep the Sabbath as a reminder of creation in six days. We will never give this up because of Jesus or Paul or any other imposter. It is hoped that articles will be made suitable to both Jews and Christians, not limited to Christians. Praised be G-d the Creator! Best wishes, Chaim

CMI’s Dr Carl Wieland responded:

Dear Rabbi Chaim,

I am glad you appreciate our articles. However, I will be infinitely more glad if you should come to know and worship Yeshua Hamaschiach, the One foretold by the prophets. The One whom the prophet Micah, for instance, said would come out of Bethlehem, “whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:2). The One whom the prophet Isaiah said would be called “Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6). [Editor’s note: see Isaiah 9:6–7: The coming Child who would be called ‘Mighty God’]

The One foretold in Genesis 3:15 as the coming ‘seed of the Woman’, whose heel would be bruised by the serpent but would crush the serpent’s head. The One who foretold His own death and Resurrection, who said that just as Moses lifted up the serpent to your forefathers in the wilderness, He would need to be lifted up on a tree, so that those who look upon Him would live. The One who is God’s Passover Lamb, without blemish and without spot (i.e. He lived a sinless life). John the Baptist said of Him, “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). Peter the Apostle said,

“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you [this includes you, Rabbi Chaim, if you come to believe in Him]. Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.” (1 Peter 1:18–21)

Yeshua (the real one, not the caricature you might have been exposed to) is not some imposter, but is the only hope for both Jew and Gentile.

Have you noticed how your forefathers were instructed to apply the blood of the Lamb, so that God’s wrath might pass them by? On the lintels and the doorpost, the blood points of a cross. I urge you to put aside cultural issues and traditions, and look for truth—from the very Bible portions you hold dear. When the Lord Yeshua was resurrected, He appeared to His disciples on the Emmaus road, and He expounded to them all things concerning Himself in the Old Testament Scriptures, “beginning with Moses and the prophets” (Luke 24:27). The Torah is so laden and interwoven with Christ, that it beggars description. I urge you to read it after prayerfully asking God the Creator to make Himself truly known to you. He makes it clear that simply believing in Him as Creator is not enough to save from His wrath against our sinfulness. Just as Moses was hidden from God’s Holiness by God Himself, not just in the rock, but in the cleft of the rock, Christ the rock, the lamb, was smitten, cleft for us, and just so we may hide from the Father’s wrath through the covering hand of God Himself.

I hope you will come to see that while we do not go out of our way to offend anyone, to ask us to avoid mention of Yeshua Hamaschiach would be like asking us to avoid the very reason for our existence, and the reason we do what we do, why we have a ministry at all. Because it is so that we might break down the barriers to belief in Him, “our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13).

If you care to send me a private email through our website (it will get forwarded to me) I will be more than pleased to put you onto works by Hebrew Christians, scholars who have come to understand that Yeshua (the real one, not the caricature you might have been exposed to) is not some imposter, but is the only hope for both Jew and Gentile. That faith in Him is not the rejection of the God of the Torah, but its fulfilment. It would have to be the most exciting and satisfying thing I can imagine, for someone to have been brought up in that tradition, and to have the scales fall from their eyes, so to speak. I will undertake to pray for you.

Kind regards,

Carl W.

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Readers’ comments
Roger T., Australia, 24 February 2013

Congratulations Dr. Wieand, gracefully written and explained in the true spirit of Jesus.

Blessings,

Roger.

Brenda D., Australia, 24 February 2013

Thank You C Wieland for sharing your response to Rabbi Chaim D's letter and his statement that Jesus was an imposter. Their culture is a historic and rich one of which we can learn a lot. But how do they reconcile the plural Elohim, the TRIUNE GOD - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - the eternal and everlasting GODHEAD who never changes - the same yesterday, today and forever and Whom Jesus came to reveal in human form? Jesus said (Mat 7:7-13)...in vain they do worship me....making the word of none effect through (their) tradition. The Messianic Jews who have indeed had the 'scales removed from their eyes', have a great mission field among their own people. May He continue to bless their ministry.

Thank you too, for the daily Infobytes. It enhances my devotions significantly.

John A., Australia, 24 February 2013

Hi,I've just finished reading your reply to Rabbi Chaim and found it very well produced.It is unfortunate that people read the Old Testament with 'blinkers' on their eyes and cannot see the fullness of the script. It is,as you pointed out, seen many times the reference to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Keep up the good work that you all are doing.

Robert B., Australia, 24 February 2013

Thanks Carl for reaffirming 'What we believe'

in CMI's faith statements as well as taking the time to invite Rabbi Chaim to know Jesus as his Lord and Saviour and not as an 'irrelevant impostor'.

Rabbi Chaim might like to confirm from the New Testament that Jesus affirmed not only God as Creator but also all that is written in the Torah about Him and man.

In particular , in Matthew 5:17,

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill"

And that He did fulfill that part of the Law written in Exodus 12 when on the 10th Day of

Nisan He entered Jerusalem and sacrificed Himself four days later for our sins.

As one of Jewish descent it is liberating and wonderful to know that I need not publicly sacrifice a lamb this March and that same God that spared Isaac so long ago is not just the Creator of the universe but loves me despite my innumerable failings.

Errol B., Australia, 24 February 2013

It’s good to hear someone raise this issue from a Jewish perspective. So often we hear compromisers such as theistic evolutionists like Rev M. and Mark M. urging you to drop ‘creationism’ and concentrate on ‘Jesus as Lord and savior’, but now we have Rabbi Chaim D. urge you drop ‘Jesus as Lord and savior’ and concentrate on ‘creationism’. Perhaps we should get these two allies together to seek common ground... or maybe not.

Antonia M., Italy, 24 February 2013

I think it would be helpful for Rabbi Chaim to also look at Isaiah 53:3, Isaiah 8:14, Isaiah 28:16 & Psalm 118:22 where it describes the rejection of the Mashiach. Also, Isaiah 53:1, Psalm 35:11, Isaiah 53:7, Isaiah 50:6, Isaiah 53:5, Isaiah 53:12, Zechariah 12:10, Psalm 22:16, Psalm 22:7–8, Psalm 69:9, Psalm 109:25, Amos 8:9, Isaiah 53:9. These are all relevant to the crucifixion of the Mashiach.

Peace <3

Jack L., United States, 24 February 2013

How insulting that a rabbi would come to a Christian site and tell you not to mention Jesus? In other words, this should be a Jewish site? Can't they get their own website?

Carl Wieland responds

Jack, may I gently and respectfully point you to 1 Peter 3:15, we are supposed to give answers to people, but do so with 'gentleness and respect'.

Graham M., Australia, 24 February 2013

Hi. I write in support of your emphasis on the Creation record. The Scriptures are very clear - both Old and New Testaments. But the Rabbi is also absolutely correct when he says that the Sabbath is the memorial of Creation. Christ also affirmed the day as His day when He said he was the Lord of the Sabbath. And if Christians had kept the Sabbath as always intended by God, it would have reduced the infamous effect that evolution has had, especially on the Christian Church. The Sabbath also points to the new creation we are in Christ by faith now. We will be granted a new body without sin when He comes the Second time and raises all His saints [including those who sleep in the dust of the earth] to be with Him. Therefore the Sabbath points backward to the God of Creation and forward to the Creator our Redeemer. It will also be part of the New Earth experience [Isaiah 66: 23] which will last throughout eternity. So how is it that we can accept the other nine commandments of God, and neglect His special sign and memorial of His power in Creationi and Redemption?

Carl Wieland responds

This is an ongoing controversy, and CMI does not stand on (or against) either side of it. But I have a problem when I see one side misrepresent the other; one example is when people say that non-Sabbatarians are deliberate Commandment-breakers. It is a very important and significant issue to determine from Scripture the relationship between the OT and NT law. Are we under the Law still? If so, why not the whole hundreds of them? What is meant by the 'Law of Christ' in Paul's writings? I am not planning to open a discussion here, that is simply not our mandate) on any of these important issues. Our 'standard reply' (a formal document) to people who write to us on this matter gives people references to books of merit from both schools of thought, and urges them to be as the noble Bereans. Finally, with no disrespect to you, Graham, I find it hard to see support (even within a Sabbatarian framework) from either the Bible or present events for the (very common) belief that had people kept the Saturday Sabbath, we would have less troubles with evolution. The reality seems to be that as evolution dominates the cultural agenda, there is less and less regard for keeping any day holy as unto the Lord.

Philip K., United Kingdom, 24 February 2013

It is a privilege to be able to have dialogue with someone who is a physical descendant of Abraham. As a follower of "Rabbi Yeshua ben Yosef of Nazaret" (Not quite correct - sorry!) I cannot claim such Jewish ancestry.

I can claim by adoption my inclusion into the the true family of Israel through the reconciliatory act of Father God, who like Abraham, as a type or shadow, was prepared to sacrifice his only son Isaac. Might I invite Rabbi Chaim (however much this might go against the grain) to read Romans chapters 9, 10 and 11 which sets out the case of my adoption (and that of every other true follower of Yeshua). You say that Paul is an imposter but I wish you would see his heart for Israel (Romans 9 and 10) even to the point of being "cut off" if it would help his beloved kinsmen.

I have deliberately not used the word "Christ" or "Christian" as I am very much aware of the pain and anger that these terms can sometimes cause to the Jewish people given the cruelty exhibited over nearly 2000 years of history by so called "Christ followers". However to again refer to Romans, (paraphrasing) "We who are adopted into the family of Israel dare not criticise the family because we can just as easily be unadopted or cut of from the Olive tree to which we have been grafted on".

I have never understood how any Christian, so called, can show any unfriendliness, anger or hatred toward the Jew in the light of this stern warning.

My final thought: It is no co-incidence that from AD 70 until now, there is no provision for the Jew to shed blood for the remission of sins because it is for this period of His lovingkindness that "that the blood of the lamb of God is sufficient for everyone for all time" Soon the Messiah will return to a new temple in Jerusalem. Shalom!

Leaton J., Australia, 24 February 2013

Perhaps Rabbi Chaim might carefully read Daniel

9: 24,27 which accurately prophesies the historical period when the Messiah will be and coincides with Jesus' ministry. I understand (but I may be wrong) that these passages are so startlingly accurate, that Jews are under rabbinical interdiction from reading them although they occur in their own Torah.

Dan B., United Kingdom, 24 February 2013

Yes, I echo others in commending Dr Carl on a fine, well-balanced reply to Rabbi Chaim - who would do well to consider that were it not for Jesus, Carl and millions of others wouldn't even know about Genesis let alone believe it, and Chaim wouldn't have any CMI articles to appreciate!

I don't know if Chaim is reading this reply or following comments, but if he or anyone likeminded is, could I also point out that the Messiah had to come before the end of the four kingdoms described in Daniel 2. The last of these, Rome, fell in the year 476. If Chaim objects to Jesus' messiahship, he needs to identify another Jewish leader from Roman times who founded a spiritual movement that has continued and grown to this day.

Did any Hebrew prophet, even Moses, ever come with more confirming miracles than Jesus? If he's an impostor, why should any of them be believed?

Broadly speaking, there are only three reasons why non-Christians don't become Christians: (1) reasons of intellect, (2) reasons of conformity, (3) reasons of addiction. However much they may claim (1), it's clear that for most religious Jews, the main factor is (2).

jan E., Canada, 24 February 2013

Dear Dr Wieland

With all due respect, you've been around long enough to fall for "Rabbis Chaims" & Co. and to waste your time to post a response to these imaginary characters.

Carl Wieland responds

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to have deduced that (note that Rabbi Chaim provided his full name when he wrote, and his email address was genuine on checking). We have had dialogue with a number of Rabbis and Orthodox Jewish scholars, including this particular one, on a number of serious scholarly issues; the motive is hard to determine. On cursory searching, I could not find any Google reference that might help me understand this comment.

John M., Australia, 24 February 2013

Thank you Dr Weiland. As one who recently visited Israel and saw first hand God's chosen people in His land, yet witnessed the denial of Christ, I found your response sensitive and affirmative. It is interesting that the Rabbi (who should know his Scriptures) would yet deny Yeshua. The average 'Jew on the street' that we met had little knowledge of the Scriptures, and even less of Jesus. But the Scriptures are clear that the Gospel message was for the Jew first, and then the Gentile. Keep up the good work.

Hans G., Australia, 24 February 2013

That's one of those 'ME and my Mum' person; 'ME and God'. ME first!

What about when you don't like the writing you don't read it. My friends and I (!) are feeling alienated by you because you are not believing in Jesus. Does this effect you?

You are reading a cook book about pork dishes but complain you are not allowed to eat pork. That makes really sense.

Chandrasekaran M., Australia, 24 February 2013

As a Hindu when I was growing up I asked my parents why the main doorpost was smeared red on both sides near the ground I was told it was to ward off evil. Years later when I read Exodus myself I understood the background for the red smearing on doorposts.

...

Abraham who lived before the Ten commandments which came through Moses (Torah) confirms that Abraham's faith in Yhvh, the Lord, was counted as righteousness – Gen 15:6. We cannot earn salvation by keeping the ten commandments for we cannot keep them by our own strength.

G-d revealed to Daniel not only when the Mashiach would come but also various events in incredible details before they happened leading up to Maccabees.

Without Iesou ie Jesus, there is no creation and no salvation.

Jorge S., South Africa, 24 February 2013

Great article by Dr Wieland!

I also pray that Rabbi Chaim be given the privilege to know Jesus, attain salvation and gain rightful access to the benefits of his ancestry.

Andrew N., United Kingdom, 24 February 2013

Thank you Carl my eyes are wet with tears from reading your reply to Rabbi Chaim D.

What a blunder the Nation of Israel made two thousand years ago in rejecting their Creator, God and Saviour.

What a blunder so many of us Gentiles have made in rejecting that same One as our very own LORD and Saviour until in Mercy the Holy Spirit opened our own blinded eyes.

How lovingly He puts up with our wanderings, faults and failures. Thank you Yeshua.

It is not Creation that matters, that would be idolatry, but rather Creation's Creator, Yeshua HaMashiach, who will soon coming again as King Messiah. In that day ALL Israel will be Saved.

May you come to know the Truth Rabbi Chaim D.

Luke 13:35, Romans 11:26

Judie S., Australia, 24 February 2013

Remember, Jesus taught Cleopas & his companion, from the Scriptures, that the Messiah (Sorry) had to suffer.

It is there, Rabbi.

The prophecies include one that He is from the tribe of Judah. I believe descent can't be traced now, so He must have already come.

Alan H., United Kingdom, 24 February 2013

It is a great shame that God's script in the Bible is not placed in context. On the subject of the Rabbi's letter, in the context of God's script Zechariah 12:2 is a case in point. How is it all those millenia ago could Jerusalem be seen as "a cup that sends surrounding peoples reeling." Also in Zechariah 12:10 (NIV) Who was the one who was pierced? It is the Lord who is speaking. "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."

The Lord opens their eyes and they see the firstborn son, who was pierced, referring to himself. (the question would have to be: how do you 'pierce' the Lord? one you could, one you cannot) In the script the Lord blinds eyes so they cannot see or recognise. However the 'Spirit of Truth' the Holy Spirit has been given to mankind (John 14:15-17) and will 'guide you into all truth' (John 16:12).

One day all eyes will see but first there must be a great falling away and for that to happen biblical authority must be hidden or despised, including and especially origins.

A. R., United Kingdom, 24 February 2013

Dear Chaim,

I am glad to see that as a Rabbi, you have a real willingness to take God's word seriously rather than taking the words of men as being above what God has said. I would wholeheartedly commend this.

If other Christians have spoken to you on this subject in a way that is offensive or rude, I am very sad about this.

However, we wholeheartedly believe that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah, and that He does fulfill many Old Testament prophecies. If you aven't already read them, I would recommend the books of Dr. Michael Brown (himself a Jew) regarding the nature and identity of Jesus. He has written a whole series of books which deal with the matter very thoughtfully and thoroughly.

Kind regards to you.

Tony F., United Kingdom, 24 February 2013

What a joy this lovely response. At 80 I continue to learn my faith and have it strengthened daily by such ministry. I too pray Rabbi Chaim and his ilk may come to know Jesus. May God continue to bless your ministry

Denise K., Canada, 24 February 2013

If only all Christians would respond with such love and respect as you have done here, we would be able to reach more people with God's truth and the love of Jesus Christ. Thank you for putting into practice what the Word teaches us in 1 Peter 3 : 15 - 16.

B. O., United States, 24 February 2013

Whether Jew or Gentile, JESUS said for all who are weary and laden to come unto HIM. We cannot deny Jesus because He is our way to eternal life. If Creation Ministries were to deny Him and God, I could no longer come to this site. We have been reading the Old Testament and throughout it talks of the seed of King David. If you believe, as a Jewish person, that he was real, you cannot deny Jesus. All the manuscripts that make up the Old and New Testament; inspired by God, must be accepted by all. I wish God's blessing to the writer and His wisdom to reveal ALL to him.

Les T., United States, 24 February 2013

Dr Wieland,

Thank you for answering Rabbi Chaim in such a Scriptural and loving way. I am a Messianic Jew and understand the resistance many of my people have to Jesus. Like much of the world Jews look to gain heaven through good works; especially since they reject the concept of original sin and thus a literal Hell. I pray my people would see that sins are not just "bad practices" which can be resolved by "good deeds", but rather as offenses to a holy and righteous God which can only be satisfied by His forgiveness through His redeeming grace through His perfect sacrifice - Y'Shua. As you mentioned and others commented on, there are many Scriptures which speak of the coming Messiah. May I add the book of Jeremiah. One need not read past chapter 3 to see the heart of Israel and its deliberate disobedience toward God. Not until we truly realize that we are sinners (not mistake makers) can we begin to understand that we must come to God with contrite hearts, knowing we have nothing to offer Him; acknowledging our sins and our need for a redeemer/savior (see Isaiah 45:21-25). My people look for a Messiah who will destroy the enemies of Israel, rebuild the Temple and reinvoke the sin sacrifices. Y'Shua came to be the final and complete atonement for sins for those who believe. Y'Shua was not a great man elevated to godhood, but rather the God of Israel who came in the form of man to be the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Y'Shua coming to earth is the answer to the age old Passover question, "Why is the middle matzo broken, buried, and then brought back?"

Kyle L., United States, 24 February 2013

A very good example of Jesus in Old-Testament scripture (which I'm sure this Rabbi follows) is Psalm 22, written by King David 600 years before Jesus Christ was born.

I'll quote it.

"They have peirced my hands and feet" (familiar?)

"My bones are all out of joint"

"My tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth"

"I am not a man, but a worm" (in reference to the Scarlet Worm)

So this means that Jesus Christ, born in Bethlehem and crucified, really is the Savior and exactly who He says He is! Praise the Lord Jesus Christ for dying for us!

Peter N., Australia, 24 February 2013

Carl, this is not really related, except that Jews may be interested in the history of the role that Christians, including Australians, NewZealanders and South Africans, played in the restoration of the modern state of Israel.

Just as the world powers allowed Israel to return from the Babylonian exile, probably for geo-political reasons as a buffer against Egypt: so also the 20th century Britain established modern Israel as a geo-political buffer seeking to protect Suez and access to their eastern empire; but also with very significant input from Christians mindful of Biblical prophesies.

Victor B., Australia, 25 February 2013

Thanks for reaffirming the context and purpose of Creation Ministries. Indeed as we can trust the history of the Old Testament so too can we trust the prophecies concerning the Lord Jesus, the veracity of his claims and the eyewitness testimony of Jesus' life, death and resurrection in the New Testament.

Lex C., Australia, 25 February 2013

Being reluctant to mention "Christ", "Christian" or "Christ follower" for concern it may alienate those who's have been persecuted by those claiming the name of Christ, is like the Australian Mint being reluctant to mention "dollars" because of the effect counterfeiters have had on their victims. A counterfeit $50 note or a counterfeit Christian only appear genuine if they look like the real thing (that is only because the real thing has value). A counterfeit $50 note actually has $50 written on it (it claims the title $50 just like the Inquisitors claimed the title "Christian") but that does not make it a true $50 note. Those who shun Jesus because of the actions of the counterfeits, to be consistent should also shun all real money for the same reason.

Rabbi Chaim D., United Kingdom, 25 February 2013

I was surprised at the response I received. Remember, I am not trying to stop your scientists from believing in Yeshua, just asking that they publish articles suitable for all readers. Creation is not a Christian idea. It is observable to anyone looking for the truth from nature, and was told by G-d to the Israelites at Mount Sinai. Even if you think Yeshua is the creator (something that seems rediculous to Jews and anyone seeking the objective truth), millions of believers in Creation to not think so. You are the Creation scientists- we have hardly anyone in that profession. Your articles are the give us much knowledge about creation science. Is it not too much to request that you keep to the subject.

The greatest shock I received was that you only speak of creation because of Yeshua. Are scientists meant to seek the objective truth? Since Creation is the objective truth, surely you should be speaking about it notwithstanding your views about Yeshua? This idea is also contained in the creationist science book "Creationist scientists answer their critics" by Dr Duane Gish. If you think Yeshua is mentioned in the Torah, you must be studying Torah with crosses on your glasses. I have been studying Torah full time for over 16 years and can guarantee you that the Torah has no references to Yeshua. How can you tell me that you uphold the Torah when your leader Paul pretented to have a viaion of Yeshua that it no longer applies today? G-d said many times in the Torah that it applies forever. It was given in front of our ancestors, and you are telling it stopped applying because of alleged communion of Yeshua and Paul? For Jews, worship of Yeshua is idolatery for which we must give up our live rather than transgress. Jews who believe in Jesus go to hell. Don't send us there!

Dave C., United States, 26 February 2013

Carl: You have done a wonderful job in replying to both the Rabi and to the fellow from Australia about the Sabbath.

Your invitation to both for further study and prayer is exactly what is needed.

You seem to be a very wise fellow.

drc

F. G., United States, 26 February 2013

I note that Rabbi Chaim makes some pretty strong claims (Jesus and Paul being "imposters") while giving absolutely nothing to back them up. It would be interesting to know what his supposed basis for such claims is.

In his additional comment, I find it telling how he says he finds no references to Yeshua in the Torah. It sounds like he's looking for direct mentions by name and nothing else, as if only so he can say he finds nothing!

There are none so blind as he who chooses not to see.

Nathanael L., United Kingdom, 26 February 2013

Dear Rabbi Chaim. I realize you are reflecting the views of many Christians when you claim that Paul claimed a vision that invalidated the law, but if you read Paul closely he emphatically does not - this misrepresentation is actually a gross caricature of his views. He has a carefully nuanced argument as he negotiated the issues of how Gentile followers of Jesus should regard the law and act so as not to offend Jews (whether believers in Jesus or otherwise). For a discussion of this issue as it applies to Paul's letter to the Romans, might I suggest 'The Mystery of Romans' by Jewish New Testament scholar Mark Nanos? Acts 18.18 strongly suggests he obeyed the law even in voluntary commandments concerning vows. In Romans 2.13 he says 'it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous'. Romans 3.31 : 'Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law'. Romans 7.12 'So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.' Romans 8.4 'the righteous requirement of the law'. In 10.4 he talks of Messiah as 'the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes'. And in Romans 13.8-10 he teaches Gentile Christians to fulfill the law in love. For Gentiles this meant following the Noachide laws and respecting the halakhic obedience of Jews. Unfortunately, over the centuries, Christians have lost the nuances of Paul's subtleties. For instance Paul opposed legalism with regard to the law (he used the phrase 'under the law' for this concept) and he opposed any supposition that the distinctive markers of the Jewish faith (Sabbath, Kosher and circumcision) made one superior to any Gentile faithfully worshipping the true Creator (an attitude he referred to as 'works of the law')

Robert N., Australia, 27 February 2013

To Rabbi Chaim

Please go over all of the passages mentioned in this article and also in the comments. It appears that you are simply ignoring them.

As it appears that you are ignoring them, your reply in the comments section seems to indicate that you just want an outlet to accuse those who believe in the true Messiah that they are wrong.

How about proving the passages mentioned have nothing to do with Jesus? That would make your sincerity more believable.

Rabbi Chaim D., United Kingdom, 27 February 2013

Having read readers comments, I must point out that I do not have the time to deal with explaining the many verses quoted. Suffice it to say that they are all explained in a logical and reasonable way by a multitude of Rabbinic commentators, and it is far fetched to say that any of them refer to Yeshua. Unlike your readers think, Jews have numerous strong arguments against Yeshua. It is an anti-Jewish myth that Jews are told not to study parts of Daniel, as they are actually required to study the entire Bible (which Christians call the Old Testament). We are not blind. Jews have been studying Torah extensively throughout the generations, together with our Rabbinic traditions, and it is strange that non-Jews think they understand our Torah better than us. We are the subject of Isaiah 53 - we are the suffering servant oppressed for years by Greeks, Romans, Crusades, Nazis, etc. I am not interested in entering a debate with Christians about Yeshua. For those really interested in knowing the Jewish approach to Yeshua, I suggest they buy the book "26 reasons Jews don't believe in Jesus" and look at the following websites: [URLs deleted according to feedback policy]. Remember, if you are not Jewish, I am not making any attempt to dissuade you from believing in Jesus. If, however, you feel disiallusioned by him, you are encouraged not to convert to Judaism but rather observe what Jews believe to be the universal code for all mankind, the 7 Noachide Laws for the sake of the G-d of Israel. They are to accept G-d and not worship idols, not blaspheme G-d's Name, not murder or do abortions, not steal, not commit adultery, incest or homosexuality, not eat a limb severed from a living animal, have just courts and monetary laws. This will earn you a place in Heaven.

Carl Wieland responds

My heart aches for you, as I'm sure is true of many readers, who will undoubtedly also pray for you.

S. H., United States, 27 February 2013

As a co-religionist of Rabbi Chaim's, I would like to put in my own two cents.

First off, I would like to commend you for a wonderful, informative site. It is so full of useful information, that I find myself constantly returning to it for the scientific affirmations of the biblical events of Creation, the Flood, and the Dispersion at Babel. I, however, being Jewish, understand that since I am a guest on YOUR site, I have to take it on YOUR terms. So I merely skip over the Christian statements. I do, however, agree with Rabbi Chaim that by doing so you limit your impact on creationism.

I would, however, like to comment on another issue. I intend the following comments to be respectful to Christians, and I hope they come across as such. But it is important that everyone, Christian and Jew, understand the issue.

I would like to remind your Christian (and Jewish) readers that there are two sides to every story, and there are two sides to the "proofs for Jesus from the Old Testament" story - the Christian side and the Jewish side.

While this is not the forum for debating these "proofs", I just want your readers to understand that ALL these "proofs" have been rejected by Jews for 2,000 years because they are all taken out of context, been mistranslated, or twisted in some way to “confirm” Jesus. There have been many Christian-Jewish disputations throughout history, and they have changed no ones mind – Christian and especially Jewish.

Any Jew reading this article with questions about these "proofs" would be wise to contact a competent Rabbi who is well versed in these issues, and discuss their questions with him.

Wishing CMI much success in advocating for creationism, and no success in converting Jews.

Signed

A proud Jew whose ancestors stood at Sinai!

Carl Wieland responds

Thank you for your respectful comment. However, I want to reassure all that we would rather limit the impact of 'creationism' than avoid mention of the reason for our site's existence. Because 'creationism' is ultimately not what it's all about. Were it not for the way in which evolution and long-agism acts as a barrier to the Gospel, why would my colleagues and I have given up well-paying jobs to be widely slammed, shunned, etc.? And to those Jews reading this tempted to rely on simply prepackaged 'rebuttals' from a 'competent Rabbi who is well versed in these issues', may I urge you to also speak to a competent Jewish person who has converted after seeing, for one thing, the astonishing series of coincidences that would have to apply if Jesus is NOT Israel's Messiah. Bible scholar Arnold Fruchtenbaum of Ariel Ministries is one whose work I would recommend in addition.

Jesse M., United States, 1 March 2013

"Wishing CMI much success in advocating for creationism, and no success in converting Jews."

CMI has no power to convert anyone; that is the job of the Holy Spirit. Jesus (Yeshua) said that you cannot come to Him unless God the Father draws you to Him (John 6:44). The Spirit spoke through Paul that only by the Holy Spirit can one confess Jesus as Lord (1 Corinthians 12:3). It is the believer's job to share the gospel, but the Holy Spirit must draw you to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

S. H., why would we become "disillusioned" with Jesus? What greater thing is there for the Son of God to die for your sins, rise from the dead to conquer sin and death, come into your heart to bear you again spiritually from the dead, and give you the free gift of eternal life? There is NOTHING greater my friend! If you came to know Jesus, as I have, then you would never speak as you do now about Him.

We don't have some blind head belief that Jesus died, rose again, and is the Son of God. We have a real relationship with Him and have each experienced Him personally, and seen the true evidence of Him in our lives. I once said that Jesus is like the wind; you can't see wind, but you know it is there because of its effect upon whatever it acts. Likewise, I can't see Jesus, for he is at the Father's right hand, but I know tat He lives and that His Spirit is within those who receive Him, for I see His effect on them.

I can attest that in the name of Jesus I have seen addictions cured, demons flee, lives transformed, and hearts develop a new-found thirst for God and His word.

Dr. Wieland, since Dr. Sarfati is a Messianic Jew, perhaps you should let him reply to objections to Jesus? [CW: With great pleasure, though I know that several CMI-US colleagues, and thus I would imagine also my friend and colleague Jonathan Sarfati, have been watching this exchange with interest. Thus, he would readily seek to weigh in if he felt it appropriate, as this is a common practice in CMI. However, the reason this has not happened to date may well be that not only have commenters such as yourself been doing a very good job of it overall, but more importantly, no reasons of substance for objections to Jesus as Messiah have actually emerged for anyone to answer.]

Jesse M., United States, 1 March 2013

"I am not trying to stop your scientists from believing in Yeshua, just asking that they publish articles suitable for all readers." You think that an atheist is going to find articles which promote God's existence to be "suitable"? Do you think that a gay couple is going to find an article which defends Biblical marriage to be "suitable"? The answer to both is no, yet I don't see you telling CMI to be silent about those things, so why should they make a special case for non-Messianic Jews?

Let me remind you that CMI is not a "Biblical Creation" site; it is a Gospel site. Biblical Creation is emphasized so heavily only because it is foundational to the gospel and one of the hardest things for many people to believe in this anti-God, pro-evolution age. For you to complain about CMI not being "suitable" for non-Messianic Jews is like me complaining to the admin of Jews For Judaism because I find their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah to be "unsuitable" for Christian readers.

"Creation is not a Christian idea." First, Creation is not anyone's "idea"; it is an event in history. Second, it is very much a part of Christianity, as it is the very foundation upon which the gospel rests. I know that many non-Christians think that Christianity is just about the New Testament, but that is quite wrong. Without the Old Testament, there would never have been a Law imputed upon us for Jesus to fulfill, and thus, no foundation for the Gospel and the New Covenant that comes through His death and Resurrection.

Jesse M., United States, 1 March 2013

S. H., I want to apologize, I mistakenly attributed the "disillusionment" comment to you, when it was actually Chaim who made it. To Chaim, you say "we [those who reject Jesus] are not blind". Question: How do you know that you see? Before I was born again in Jesus, I thought I knew everything and that I could see just fine. However, the Holy Spirit truly opened my eyes and now I look back and realize that I was not seeing at all. How do you know that at some pont in the future, the same thing won't happen to you? Is it not written, "there is a way that seems right to a man, but it is a way leading to death"?

Chaim, also, we are very aware of books written by Jews which deatil why they reject Jesus, and there have been people such as Dr. Michael Brown, a Messianic Jew, who have written rebuttals to those kind of writings.

S.H., I completely disagree with you that we misinterpreted anything. If you examine the New Testament, you will find many people who believed precisely BECAUSE they knew the Old Testament, not in spite of it. Also, if you search the Gospels, you will find that the real reason why many Jews in Jesus' day did not believe in Him was becuase they misunderstood the Scriputres.

Rob S., United States, 2 March 2013

Beautiful, beautiful dialogue in this thread!

I am humbled by my spiritual condition (far from holy), and perhaps am therefore in an adequate position to contribute to this discussion. I must rely on the Indwelling Presence to meaningfully contribute in such a way as to elicit resonance in your hearts

I know Yeshua HaMashiach - He has revealed Himself to me by his planting in me, Ruach HaKodesh, Who came to me one night precisely at the time the prayer group 1/2 mile away was praying for me. I initially thought that they were crazy heretics, too.

No one can now tell me that He is a myth, I have encountered Him.

I worship the G-d of Avraham, Yitsaac, and Jacov. There is no conflict in my deep and private prayer. You will note that three "men" visited Avraham & Sarai and foretold a son. The earliest Name (HaShem) in the Torah is "Elohim" (plural, by Hebrew grammar). In the "Shma", why do you say "ehad", rather than "yahid", allowing for a plurality of personality in the Most High (even though He has a singular Will).

Read Isaiah 55: "As high as the heavens are above the Earth...".

Avram (Abram) encountered the Holy Presence through private and plaintive prayer. So did Moishe in the desert. These holy men had no tradition to influence them - they simply discerned and prayed. Perhaps so did Mohammed, so defend yourself and discern! First, impose the protection of the G-d of Avraham, Yitsaac, & Jacov around yourself. Jews should have no problem with this part.

You need not listen to the arguments of men. Go to the Source and plead at His feet. Find out for yourself!

You will find that He is Love, and he does care for you deeply. "No longer will you have to teach how to know the Lord, for all of you, from the greatest to the least, shall know Me

Robert B., Australia, 3 March 2013

Thanks so much for your comment, Rob S.

So you and I worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And we know Jesus.

Jews are not forbidden by God to worship Jesus.

Where in the Torah, Rabbi Chaim, is this written?

You mention the law that says Jews are forbidden to worship idols.

For some Jews, tradition has become an idol, which they worship,

just as the stiffnecked at Sinai worshipped a Golden Calf

at the same time that Moses was in the presence of God.

Which God? Nicole Mullen has written a wonderful song which praises the same God.

It starts..

'Who taught the sun where to stand in the morning?

Who told the ocean you can only come this far?

Who showed the moon where to hide 'til evening?

Whose words alone can catch a falling star?

Well I know my Redeemer lives

I know my Redeemer lives:

Let all creations testify

Let this, life within me cry

I know my Redeemer lives, yeah.'

This song is not about Gentile-ness, or Abrahamic genes , of having dedicated turf on earth, or litiginous heaven entry,...such petty things.

It is about knowing a Love, which is greater than

anything in the world or anything we can imagine.

Thankyou Rob. S of reminding me of the verse

'No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest'...

written by a Jew who persecuted Jesus-worshippers but came to know His Love

and died for Jesus in Rome so long ago.

Rabbi Chaim D., United Kingdom, 4 March 2013

Following more recent readers' messages, I do not understant why writers are still trying to convert Jews to Yeshua when we are not trying to convert them. I am upset that a lot of writers are misinterpreting the Torah to suggest that G-d is made up of more than one part, something which for Jews is considered idolatery for which we must give up our lives rather than transgress, as thousands of Jews did in the days of the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, when believers in your god and messiah, Yeshua, turned into brutal murderers. Not all Divinely given Jewish law is written in the Torah. Much is known from oral tradition, later recorded in the Talmud and Shulchan Aruch. The Divine Name Elo-him is in the plural out of respect (the royal we) as we find any position of importance expressed in the plural in the Torah, for example the leader of Egypt (Joseph, but at that time his identity hidden) is described at adonei ha'aretz, literally masters of the land, rather than adon ha'aretz, master of the land. One means one literally. G-d is an inseparable Supreme Being with only one identity. Anyone who thinks otherwise, if Jewish, is guilty of idolatery. I call on all Jews to famaliarise themselves with the Torah with its Rabbinic commentaries and explore the richness of the Jewish heritage, and will realise that they only are at an advantage by rejecting Yeshua. We cannot be influenced by private people's alleged visions of Yeshua, only by the open revelation of G-d to the entire nation of millions of our ancestors. I believe with perfect faith that this Torah will never be changed and there will never be any other Torah from the Creator, blessed be His Name (Maimonides, ninth principle of Jewish faith). Looking forward to the swift arrival of the true Messiah.Best wishes.

Robert B., Australia, 5 March 2013

Rabbi Chaim, in truth you are much less interested in Creation.com than in

'rejecting Jesus'.

The more that Jesus is rejected,

the more that Jesus is affirmed.

The Jews and Romans who rejected Jesus and

placed Him on a cross at Calvary were merely

preparing the Lamb to be sacrificed at a particular place, hour, day and year planned

by Him.

Just as the six days of creation were

planned by Him.

Our Father in Heaven

Hallowed Be Thy Name

In the beginning You created the Earth and Heavens

and on the sixth day You created us

whom You love

But we chose to be a very stiffnecked species

At Sinai You forgave some of us

At Calvary You forgave the rest

Through You Jesus we are forever blest

Hallowed be Thy Name

The Name that is above all Names

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