Egypt’s Great Pyramid, pre-Flood, or post-Flood? Questions answered!
Pyramids were constructed after the Flood.
Commenting on Gavin Cox’s article Time fears the Pyramids? How they fit into the true biblical history, Russel L. from Canada challenges Gavin’s position, suggesting the technology to build the Great Pyramid must be pre-Flood, and suggests using various lines of reasoning that the Great Pyramid pre-dates Noah’s Flood.
CMI’s Gavin Cox responds.
Russel L. writes:
It appears that there is an assumption that sedimentary rock did not exist prior to the great flood? I was wondering if there is evidence to support that? The time line, dating evidence, and lack of biblical reference to the pyramids would suggest that they are pre-flood structures that did survive for some reason or another? It seems very unlikely that the sons of Noah would have been able to have or obtain such technology or knowledge to build such exacting structures like the pyramids. Even by today’s technology we would struggle to replicate. It seems more likely the sons of Noah stumbled onto the pyramid tech and “took it over” Egyptian technology does not appear to advance in construction post pyramids. Why would this technology-driven empire decline rather than advance? This suggests that the knowledge of the construction was not naturally obtained but stolen or borrowed without the fundamental knowledge to advance or maintain it. The pyramids are thought to be tombs by secular teaching, this is evidently not true either. Without having the room to explain why let’s just say that the shear construction alone doesn’t support that. The construction suggests that they represent a technology not had in post flood evidence. (Global position, co-ordinated use of granite, gold, copper and exact measurements). If one looks at just one aspect of the evidence without looking at ALL factors that influence, we will miss the message and meaning. Time, Tech, natural evidence and geology all can change. People do not, we are still sinful and deluded. The secular thought to pyramid purpose is not typical human behaviour either. Suggesting a different influence (Nephilim?).
Thanks for your comment, but it is difficult to adequately cover all aspects of what you are stating, and indeed the faulty logic you use, but here goes anyway.
Your first point:
“It appears that there is an assumption that sedimentary rock did not exist prior to the great flood? I was wondering if there is evidence to support that?”
Firstly, I would say there was most definitely sedimentary rock in the pre-Flood world, but that the Pyramid rock is sedimentary rock from Noah’s Flood, as we shall see below. In fact, the testimony of Genesis 1:9–10 demands there must have been sedimentary rock as part of the original Creation:
“And God said, ‘Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.’ And it was so. God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.”
Those verses imply the formation of vast amounts of sediments! They describe a global Flood’s worth of activity in (maybe) half a day! Can you imagine the kind of geological processes that happened then? Massive erosion of newly created basement rock and deposition on an unimaginable scale. Remember, Noah’s Flood was just over a year, but this was all accomplished in a few hours during the first portion of Creation Day 3! And then there is a period of history of 1,656 years from creation to the Flood, where erosion and deposition was being achieved by rivers, rain, and ocean tides etc., so that must have formed additional sediments on top of Creation Day 3 sediments.
No death before Creation
The point to grasp though is that there were no fossils (dead organisms) in those Creation Day 3 sediments, simply because life had not been created yet. That came later, on the same day, for plant-life, then on Day 5 flying and marine creatures, and Day 6, land creatures and humans. Theologically, we need to remember what a fossil is—a dead thing, (assuming Nephesh-life rather than modern definitions of biological life). Genesis 1–2 is very clear there was no death of Nephesh-life before sin! This is essential to recognize when the fossils were made, and the sediments that encased them. Death, and therefore all fossils must come after the Fall and after sin, but as we shall see, fossils and the rocks they are found in are best explained in terms of the geological activity of Noah’s Flood.
Secondly, the position of the rocks is essential to recognize when they were laid down, the deeper the rock the ‘older’ it is, generally speaking, in the timing of the Flood year event. Of course, we are not saying ‘older’ in terms of millions of years as secular interpretations would have it. So, depending on the relative position of the rock would depend upon where it should be place within the overall Flood sequence. Though there is still debate amongst Creation geologists, most would put the pre-Cambrian at the beginning of the Flood, because it has fossils. To understand all of geology from a Flood perspective see this important article The geology transformation tool A new way of looking at your world by Tas Walker.
According to secular geologists, the Giza Plateau is composed of layered carbonate deposits (meaning calcareous, containing CaCO3) dating from the so-called Late Cretaceous—Eocene periods, which secular geologists believe was deposited on the floor of a shallow sea they call the Tethys Sea. This was believed to have been a long and narrow ocean, which separated Africa from Asia after Pangea split apart, which conventionally is dated at c.200 million years ago. However, to put all that in biblical perspective, using Walker’s geology model, the limestone was deposited at the end of the Flood, because of the sequential positions of the rock layers relative to the Flood timing, (along with a whole host of internal geological evidence). So no, the limestone, containing fossils was laid down at the end of the rising Floodwaters, and is by any stretch of the imagination, not pre-Flood. Furthermore, geologists have observed that the limestone the Pyramid is made from is full of up to 40% of fossil shells and marine organisms called nummulites.
Finally, the limestone blocks themselves, that the Great Pyramid is constructed from, show no evidence of water erosion. This surely is a death-knell to the idea that they were pre-Flood constructions. To think that the pyramids could survive the globe-covering Flood indicates that one does not really understand or accept the magnitude of Noah’s Flood.
The pyramids exist because of the Flood
You then hurl a whole herd of elephants in one sentence when you state:
“The time line, dating evidence, and lack of biblical reference to the pyramids would suggest that they are pre-flood structures that did survive for some reason or another?”
Which time line? Which dating evidence? Why would the Bible reference a huge monument to paganism—aka the Pyramids? None of which actually proves they are pre-Flood structures—for any reason or another!
Consider one theological point please: in Genesis 6:5–7 the reason for the Flood is given, human’s great wickedness. This would have included any pagan idols and structures that were made. The Scriptures state:
“So the LORD said, ‘I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land … ’” (Genesis 6:7).
The Hebrew word used here for “blot out” is מחה (machah) HALOT-5004 states: “to wipe clean; wipe out, annihilate: be removed, annihilated.” God’s curse is primarily aimed at humans, (followed by the rest of the land-dwelling creation). Machah is the strongest possible expression of the complete removal from the land of every vestige of people and their works (not found on board the ark). The question being, if the pyramids were pre-Flood, in what way could it be said that God kept His promise? No, man and his influence (buildings, technology etc.) were completely pulverised and wiped off the face of the earth, and into the ocean basins, where they were buried beneath kms depth of sediments.
There is also much geological evidence to suggest a complete reshaping of the earth’s entire topography, vast erosion during the Flood, including the creation of new continents, the subduction of the pre-Flood ocean floor and entirely new mountain ranges being pushed up. In short, there is no way even the Pyramids could have survived this onslaught, they would have been pulverised along with the rest of the continents, particularly as limestone is a soft rock that is easily eroded. That is one reason why the Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:5–7 refers to the Genesis Flood (mabbul in Hebrew) using the Greek term kataklusmos, which is where we get our English word cataclysm. Here Peter refers to the unique destructive power of the Flood, as an earth-destroying catastrophic event.
You then state:
“It seems very unlikely that the sons of Noah would have been able to have or obtain such technology or knowledge to build such exacting structures like the pyramids.”
What makes you say that? Noah constructed the Ark to survive a year-long global Flood. It had three decks and could keep all the animals fed and watered for a year. One would think the Pyramids were easy compared to that! Of course, Noah and his sons must have had vast amounts of mathematical and engineering skills to be able to build a boat at least 135m long, 22.5m wide and 13.5m high (approx. 443×74×44 feet) with an extremely stable 6:1 length:breadth ratio—still used by modern naval architects. That took an amazing engineering ability, which is only appreciated by other nautical engineers, see for instance this study that uncovers the brilliance of the Ark builders: Safety investigation of Noah’s Ark in a seaway. For further information and articles about Noah’s amazing Ark see: Noah’s Ark Questions and Answers.
Advanced technology or a huge workforce?
You then state:
“Even by today’s technology we would struggle to replicate.”
I only half agree with that, the main point is economics, the sheer cost of manpower and materials is key to understanding why the Egyptians were able to build, but then stopped building such vast edifices like the pyramids—it broke the bank! This answers your next series of points, including when you state:
“Egyptian technology does not appear to advance in construction post pyramids. Why would this technology driven empire decline rather then advance?”
The answer to that question, is that it is simply down to economics. I agree with Gary Bates when he states in his Egyptian chronology go-to article Framing the Issues:
“Another interesting piece of anecdotal evidence is that after this period of pyramid building Egypt went into a long period of economic and political instability. Such building involved massive and expensive public works which would have overtaxed the treasury, particularly, if labour had to be hired. It is believed that at the end of the 6th Dynasty, civil wars ravaged the country and central rule and power became diluted in favour of local governors who set up their own local pharaonic dynasties (creating some of the confusion described earlier) during the First Intermediate Period. Some scholars have even suggested that the 7th Dynasty (Manetho’s 70 kings in 70 days) is a metaphor for the chaos that engulfed Egypt at this time.”1
You make a few more assertions, which I consider covered in the above points, before stating the Pyramids function as a tomb “is evidently not true either.” Evidently? What evidence? There is a burial sarcophagus inside the Great Pyramid, which I have personally seen, it was broken on the side, so maybe was forced open by tomb robbers. Also, evidence suggests the sarcophagus was placed inside the Pyramid as the king’s chamber was being built and not afterwards, due to the larger size of the sarcophagus, compared to the entry corridor. Furthermore, the fifth Dynasty pyramids are also massive in scale and inscribed on their walls, are inscriptions stating that these pyramids were built as tombs for the (named) pharaohs for the afterlife.
You then go on to explain your position that the technology involved to build the Great Pyramid must be pre-Flood or designed and built by alleged Nephilim which, again, would be a pre-Flood idea, but refuted for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Also, please read Who were the sons of God in Genesis? for our discussion of these beings. However, you ignore so much archaeological and textual evidence I cannot even begin to summarise. Archaeologists know who built the pyramids, there have been entire workmen’s villages discovered along with their work rosters, even what they ate and drank alongside them on the Giza plateau. The Great Pyramid did not appear out of nowhere.
We have earlier fourth Dynasty attempts that show how pyramid construction developed. The third Dynasty constructed stepped pyramids, which were the first attempts at stacking flat-top mastabas on top of each other. The pyramid of Djoser at Saqquara is the famous example, but others include Sekhemkhet, Khaba, and Lepsius N 0 1. This was then followed by eight ‘provincial pyramids’ built in the 3–4th Dynasties, with developing sophistication. Then we have the first attempts at smooth-faced pyramids, starting with Meidum’s pyramid, then the rhomboidal pyramid, then the bent pyramid of Dahshur—the 4th Dynasty builders didn’t get the angle correct for the side slope, and had to change course halfway up. I have seen some of these up close and personal, I can testify to these facts. Finally, the first true, smooth sided Pyramid, was constructed, called the Red Pyramid. Only then did Khufu’s Great Pyramid get built. But, even here, there is much evidence of internal tinkering to stop the king’s chamber from collapsing as the pyramid was getting higher and heavier. The pyramid builders didn’t leave much information about their construction techniques, so there are still mysteries to be solved. However, the clever technology required to make the pyramids has largely been explained by modern engineers and required nothing magical to explain them, just massive amounts of manpower, money, and brilliant planning and engineering.
If you want to see a sensible proposal of how the Great Pyramid was constructed see this CMI article: How did they build the Great Pyramid?—an architect’s proposal by Trevor Harris, and no Nephilim (or aliens for that matter) were required! Thanks for stopping by with your comment. Gavin