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Distant starlight and the days of Genesis 1
Published: 13 April 2013 (GMT+10)

How should we approach the distant starlight travel time issue? How do we argue against day-age theory? CMI’s Shaun Doyle examines these questions in today’s feedback from William L. from Australia.
Dear William,
Thank you for your email and your kind words. As a general point, I recommend our search function and our Q and A pages, by which you can find articles that answer all these questions.

Dear CMI,
I’m a huge fan of your work and I appreciate all that the organisation has done in strengthening the faith of many Christians worldwide.
I just have a few questions on starlight, scripture and Dr. Humphreys’ theory.
1) The speed of light is related to a number of physical constants. E.g. E = mc² and c² = 1/ε0µ0 (Deriving the speed of light with Maxwell’s equations). Hence, changing the speed of light will change the energy levels of atoms, atomic and nuclear constants (classical electron radius will change, if energy was kept constant then mass of electron and proton will have to change) and the electric and magnetic constants (ε0 and µ0). This leads to the question: how do you reconcile a faster speed of light in the past (and the change should be substantial to allow light to travel ~ 13 billion lightyrs from the farthest galaxy to the earth in 6000 yrs) with the Anthropic principle which includes the argument that all the physical constants of the universe can’t be changed by a fraction (as that would mean that man will not be able to exist)?
We don’t have to reconcile the two because we do not currently advocate any sort of idea that postulates a faster speed of light in the past to explain distant starlight, nor does Dr Humphreys. Please see How can we see distant stars in a young Universe?
2) I read the section in your book ‘refuting compromise’ about why it is wrong to interpret each day in Genesis as one of God’s days (or a long period of time). Please correct me if I’m wrong but it seems that the main argument is that because there is a number associated with the word ‘day’ in Hebrew (yom), therefore, the Hebrew language does not allow the long period of time interpretation for the word. But I was wondering, if we were to translate the verse in Peter’s letter about how 1 day can be a 1000 years to God from Greek into Hebrew, wouldn’t it be a Hebrew instance where even if there is a number associated with the word ‘yom’, that ‘yom’ could still be a long period of time?
This is what Dr Sarfati says:
“When modified by a cardinal number (for example, one, two, three …) or ordinal number (for example, first, second, third …) as used 359 times in the OT [Old Testament] outside Genesis 1, yôm always means a literal day of about 24 hours, or the light portion of the day-night cycle. This is true in narrative, legal writings, prophecy, wisdom literature, and even poetry. So there must be extraordinary reasons to justify an extraordinary exception, if Genesis 1 is indeed an exception.”1
He of course goes on to demonstrate that Genesis 1 is no exception to this unanimous usage, and not just by appealing to this pattern (he cites other evidence in favour of his interpretation). But this argument is inductive—he is establishing a general pattern from specific examples. He is saying that in every actual example of the ‘yôm + number’ construction in the Old Testament yôm always refers either to a 24-hour day or the daylight hours of a 24-hour day. Instead, your question misconstrued Dr Sarfati’s argument as deductive—explaining a particular example by a general rule; i.e. that there is an inviolable rule in Hebrew grammar that says: “yôm +number can only refer to a 24-hour ‘day’”. There is of course no such inviolable rule. But this doesn’t matter for Dr Sarfati’s argument because his argument is inductive, not deductive.
Concerning 2 Peter 3:8 (also covered in Refuting Compromise), note the second half of the verse: “and a thousand years are like a day”. And note 2 Peter 3:9: “The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” Peter is expanding on Psalm 90:4 to show that some people’s idea of ‘slow’ is wrong. God’s promise will be fulfilled in due time, and the so-called ‘slowness’ doesn’t demonstrate the falsehood of the promise, but demonstrates God’s patience. In all this, understanding the point of 2 Peter 3:8 still depends on understanding ‘day’ as a typical 24-hour day. Note also that these verses have nothing to do with the days of Genesis 1.
Please see 2 Peter 3:8—‘one day is like a thousand years’, Did God really take six days?, The meaning of yôm in Genesis 1:1–2:4, and The days of Creation: A semantic approach.
3) I read in one of your books or heard in your videos that CMI believes that the universe was in existence in Gen 1:1–2. How old was the universe just before the 1st day?
Genesis 1:1–2 was not before the first day, but describes the starting conditions of the cosmos on the first day. Referring to the Sabbath, Exodus 31:17 says: “It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.” Everything was made in those first six days of history, including the initial state of the universe from nothing (that was actually the beginning of the first day). Please see ‘Soft’ gap sophistry.
4) In Dr. Humphreys’ theory, he argues that because of the deformation in the space-time fabric and the expanding universe, time ran faster on the edge of the universe compared with time at the location of the Earth. Hence, billions of years could pass at the edge of the universe in 4 earth days. But doesn’t that mean that the universe itself is still billions of years old (at least on the outer limits of the universe)?
What matters for Dr Humphreys’ cosmology (and others like it) is that only one day passed on earth while billions of years’ worth of physical processes occurred on the outer reaches of the universe. In a relativistic sense we could say that the universe is both 6000 years old (as measured on Earth) and billions of years old (as measured at the edge of the universe). However, the Bible counts time from an earth-bound reference frame, so it speaks of the universe being about 6,000 years old. Please see How can we see distant stars in a young Universe?
Note that all creationist cosmologies seek to do is try to understand how distant starlight got to Earth in a single Earth day. They are not seeking to discern whether that happened. That question is easily settled—it happened. That God is omnipotent clearly means God can do it, and Genesis 1:14–19 clearly implies that it happened. We just don’t know how it happened. But we don’t need to know how distant starlight got to Earth in a single Earth day to know that it did.
Nevertheless, it is good to try and figure out how it happened, or at least develop plausible theories on how it could have happened given the observational data we have. It shows we think Genesis 1 occurred in the real space-time-matter world, and is not some ‘religious’ idea that has nothing to do with the real world. It also shows that the observational evidence really is consistent with Genesis 1. And it shows we’re not against science per se. Please see Modern science in creationist thinking.
Thanks CMI for your help. You answers will be very much appreciated.
Kind regards and God Bless,
William
Kind regards,
Shaun Doyle
Creation Ministries International
Related Articles
Further Reading
References
- Sarfati, J., Refuting Compromise (Updated & Expanded), Creation Book Publishers, Powder Springs, GA, p. 73, 2011. Return to text.
Readers’ comments
I have no problem with the time involved for light to travel from the stars to earth.
In Psalm 33:6 (NASV) "By the Word of the LORD the heavens were made, and by breath of His mouth, all their host (stars, moon, sun, galaxies)" I picture that event in a rather simple (if not slightly crude) way. In some sporting events, spectators may throw a toilet roll but hold on to the first sheet. As it quickly travels away it unwinds leaving a white trail. The whole event takes seconds but it would require, for example, hours for an ant to walk the entire trail! I am not sure if that concept would make God deceptive any more than it would with Adam looking 20 years old when he, in fact was only days old at the beginning.
The same could be said about the water turned into wine by Jesus. A (10?) year old vintage wine mere minutes old at the word of His mouth.
Creation, like many other events in the Bible, not to mention modern miracles (e.g. a middle aged man with a brand new stomach only minutes old) are supernatural and therefore by definition outside the normal operating laws of nature.
With specific reference to 2 Peter 3:8: “ To God, [1st part] a short period of actual time seems long, and [2nd part] a long period of actual time seems short.” It is the SECOND part of that dual expression—NOT the first—that has some parallel to Psalm 90:4.
The long-agers’ attempted wrong connection (I used to be guilty of this) between that FIRST part and Psalm 90:4 shows their (and my former) lack of inductive-study rigor when grappling with this verse. Their choice [the 1st part] is exactly opposite to the choice [2nd part] logically required in their attempt.
I used to be (like all old-earthers) desperate to find a rationale for upholding both the Bible and an old-earth concept. In my desperation, my normal desire for rigorous Bible study got compromised. I sloppily examined this verse, relied on a defective first impression, and made the above described mistake.
With respect to interpretation of the 2nd part of the formulaic saying: good interpretation prioritizes local context. Immediately after the 2nd part is Peter’s tie in of God’s patience to “1,000 years are as a day”. As you at CMI point out, we must let this explicitly linked divine patience have primacy of interpretation of that formulaic 2nd part. It doesn't comment on the creation account.
The rest of 2 Peter 3 points to the obvious interpretation of the 1st-part “a day is as 1,000 years”: God’s ability to make physical changes quickly and powerfully, whether in Noah’s flood or at the return of Christ. We YECers should prize that 1st part!
How wonderful is our GOD..
http://creation.com/distant-starlight-genesis-days
appears to go against your other articles I was reading eg here which suggest c-decay?
http://creation.com/speed-of-light-slowing-down-after-all
Put in that context, our light-travel issue pales into insignificance, especially when seen against the background of Quasar red / blue-shift anomalies that beg for a revision of the galacto-centrist question.
If I understood correctly, the model states that time ran faster in the rest (outer edges?) of the universe than at earth, in the past, namely during Day 4, I figure, and that this means that the rest of the universe did in fact age billions of years, compared to the earth.
BUT, does this mean that the light reaching us from distant stars and galaxies are showing them as billions of years old? I think, if I understood the article, that the light from the rest of the universe, being red-shifted, is showing us what the rest of the universe looks like 6,000 local years after its creation. So even though it has aged much older, that light has not reached us yet, because it has not experienced the dilation, only the light shortly after its creation experienced the dilation, so we're seeing a 6,000-year-old universe no matter what?
Pardon me, profusely, if this is even asking the wrong question because I didn't understand what I read. But if I got enough right to ask a question that makes sense, if you'd care to answer it, I'd appreciate getting set straight. :)
The one thing about so many people Christian or not when we talk about God and His Handy Work is that we look at it and discuss all as focussed under a microscope. Such a small part of the picture and not considering the whole at the same time to get the proper perspective. When some one paints a picture of a sun rise and the light rays a shining through a light mist onto the beautiful colored leaves on a forest floor they do a complete picture. God said let there be light , later making the sun, moon and stars. He is GOD we have to stop trying to fit what He Did and Does into a box of human reasoning. THERE WAS NOTHING IN THE PHYSICAL UNTIL HE SPOKE IT INTO EXISTANCE. Go ahead , speak your favourite ice cream cone into existance. See what I mean. He operates out side of our reality. He is still keeping it all together just by His Word. When one atom is only split apart the results are huge. Now think of the number of atoms and energy He is holding from coming apart all the time And carrying on all the other things He does at the same time. Then there is the whole Spiritual realm He made and over sees including a Spiritual on going battle 24/7 . We really need to step way back and say hold it I have to start focusing with both eyes.
The last few paragraphs of the article point in that direction. It is fun to search out the things of God and I believe He enjoys us doing so BUT we have to quit saying and waisting our time saying that God couldn't , it is just painting for Him.
In this star light issue the distance and the speed of light are (fairly) constant, time is the variable and God can alter it.
The easiest way to find out is to make it to heaven and then ask God.
The universe was in turmoil because of Satan's rebellion.
God created the earth as a testing ground for Satan's form of government based on self not love.
So the earth becomes the centre of the universe.
It all hinges on the interpretation of Gen. 1:16b.
Some scholars interpret this statement as inclusive of creation at the same time as the earth (CMI), others say that it is a separate statement to be understood that the stars (universe) was already there.
This view solves all the speed of light problems because the stars were already shining and the light was reaching God's new creation as He formed it.
I can't see that this view in any way compromises the young earth belief.
God created this world for a purpose. It was not just a random idea God had one day. 1 Cor. 4:9 "For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings."NIV.
"For all the world's a stage. And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,..." William Shakespear. As You Like It. Sc. 2 Act 7.
Blessings,
Roger.
Another problem is Genesis 1:28: "And God blessed them. And God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'" Dominion over creation was given to humanity, not Satan.
Please see Gap theory revisited, ‘Soft’ gap sophistry and What about gap theories?,
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